Building Your Professional Network for Young Lawyers Part 1 Transcript
No young attorney has ever died from networking, but many have felt extraordinarily uncomfortable. From business lunches, to Thanksgiving gifts, to surviving (and thriving) in a room full of strangers, Bethany and JP share their true stories and sound advice on how to build a professional network — and why it’s worth the effort.
Thank you guys so much for joining us today, we’re really excited. Because being a skillful attorney is only half of the formula to success in our practice. The other half being building a client base and networking. Today Bethany and I will be talking about some of the tips and tricks that we’ve learned along the way in what can often be a little bit of an uncomfortable scenario like building a client base, building a referral network, getting out there and talking to folks. So, today it’ll just be Bethany and I in part one of this podcast on networking. And part two we’ll have some special guests for you folks to talk about helping lawyers cultivate their careers and cultivate their professional networks.
How Can I Network While Still in Law School?
Danelsy M.
Cool. So let’s jump right in. Let’s take it back to law school. Pretty sure there are so many great stories about that. You starting law career or you know you want to be a lawyer. At what point in time did you actually realize that, “I do need to meet people”?
JP Faunes
Yeah, I’ll start since I’m considerably closer to law school currently, yes. And I’m sure I can remember. I think that probably it was right around my second, maybe the beginning of my third year when I realized that I wanted to be a trial attorney. But it became more and more clear to me that that was really sort of my only option because I had pigeonholed myself into wanting to be in either the district attorney’s office or the public defender’s office. And I had not spent any time outside of my comfort zone. I’d made friends in law school, I’d made friends in those internships, but I hadn’t pushed myself outside of that comfort zone. So I hadn’t met people really who were doing internships at big law firms or doing a more diverse set of practice like immigration, that kind of thing that I had sort of tangential interests in, but I just hadn’t really pushed myself. And it took me a while. I mean, I don’t know about you Bethany, but I certainly, I wasn’t great at getting out there and meeting people my first couple of years. How did you build your networking base?
Bethany N.
I’m very embarrassed to say that I certainly never realized during law school that networking is so important. And that’s one of the first things that I would recommend to a young attorney in law school that while doing well and getting good grades and achieving success in law school is important, when it comes to getting jobs, it’s really about making connections and knowing people. So, throughout law school I did not connect with that many people. I was very focused on doing well. And the internships that I had and the opportunities that I had were not through networking. They were through on-campus interviews or interviews that I responded to online.
Bethany N.
And I certainly think now that I would have had a leg up had I taken the time to connect with more people and had I gone to events and connected with people. And what a lot of law students don’t understand is that you can’t be so focused on the end result. You can’t be so results-oriented. You can’t be driven solely to get a job. You have to put that aside and just worry about making the connections. So that’s something that I didn’t do that I regret doing. And I certainly look at a lot of lawyers now who are of my year or even more experienced who get a lot of referrals from people they did know in law school. So, don’t be so results-driven. Just look about connecting with people through events and any type of opportunity that you have.
JP Faunes
Yeah, and I would add onto that now that I’m thinking about it because I was recently in front of some law students talking about not this subject, but about being a young lawyer. And it occurs to me that I gave them some advice that I’ll repeat here at any law students who are listening. I was still kind of in a frame of mind when I came into law school of college and high school. It was still the most natural thing to do is to find a group of friends in your section or whatever, and that becomes your clique. And that’s who you hang out with that, that’s who you go to the bar with, that’s who you study with, that’s who you do all your stuff with. And everyone feels that way. Everyone feels that pressure.
JP Faunes
And so everyone kind of self-segregates. And looking back, I look around now at the Philadelphia legal landscape, and so many people who I had such a great opportunity to develop a relationship with if I had been committed to that aspect of looking forward and realizing that’s what I would need in my practice. There’s so many people out there doing diverse, interesting, really high-level work who I just missed. I mean, now is a great time still to reach out and reconnect, but I just missed a great opportunity if I just would’ve stepped outside of sort of that collegey mentality, and really considered that, “Hey, this is a career that I’m starting here. And I need to invest in the resource that I have most available to me, which is 250 other students who are going through the same thing that I am on the same campus.” Just get outside your comfort zone and go meet them.
What Are the Best Professional Organizations for Young Lawyer Networking?
Danelsy M.
So, let’s talk a little bit about professional organizations at the law school level and throughout your career. Can you actually give some suggestions as to how important it is to join them, which are the top five for you, top two, three locally, nationally, if you’re a part of any of them, and how they’ve actually help you throughout your career?
JP Faunes
Yeah. I have always been a little bit more focused regionally and locally. There are so many good national bar associations, but I find that they, especially the worthy ones, take so much time and so much effort that it’s hard to be really broad in the groups that you join. For me, I’m really involved in the Hispanic Bar Association of Pennsylvania. Those are some of my closest friends, people I consider family. I love them all and support them all. And it’s a great group of people. So I would say that if there is a bar, obviously if you are a diverse or a minority hire or if there’s a bar that makes sense for you given your cultural background or your upbringing, that’s an easy investment.
Danelsy M.
Hold on. Not a bar that serves drinks though.
Bethany N.
I thought that that’s what you were talking about.
Danelsy M.
I know, me too. I’m like, “Come on. Is there wine?”
JP Faunes
There are bars that serve drinks around? Is that a thing?
Danelsy M.
I mean, some days.
JP Faunes
A bar association. Then certainly that’s worthy of your time. And also, basically all of those bar associations here in Philadelphia have listservs and free programming specifically targeted towards law students in developing future membership. So, that’s an easy one to take. And then for me, sort of a natural overlap to that was I was always interested in service. I was at CLS. Community Legal Services here in Philadelphia is where I started doing my first internship. And that was an easy sort of young board to get involved in. And a number of others that we can talk a little bit more about, but that’s sort of the easy stuff coming out of the gate that I would recommend you get involved in.
Bethany N.
I think in terms of your involvement in associations, before we get into the details of what I’ve been involved with, but I think it’s important that you have two focuses when you are looking to get involved in something. First of all, for me, I enjoy networking. It’s something that I’ve learned to like. And I think for a young attorney, when you spend so much time working, you need an outlet. So for me, networking is an outlet. It’s something enjoyable. So when I’m looking to get involved in something, I want to make sure one, it’s something that I’m going to enjoy and have a good time. It’s something I can get away from the office and forget about the brief that I’m working on or anything else. But number two, it’s something that’s going to benefit me in some fashion. It’s going to improve my skills, it’s going to potentially bring in business. So those are the things I look for before I commit myself to getting involved in an organization.
Bethany N.
So for me, number one is Philadelphia Trial Lawyers. It’s a plaintiff trial lawyer organization. And I’ve been involved for two reasons. One, I find it very enjoyable. The people are great. You really have that opportunity to interact with top caliber attorneys from Philadelphia, which is an opportunity that you don’t usually get. So, that’s one of the organizations. Number two, I’ve recently become involved in the Philadelphia Bar Association. And for me, the reason in doing so is I think I want to improve the policies of the Philadelphia Bar Association, work on charitable projects through the Bar Association, and generally help to benefit the profession. And I think also the Bar Association is helpful because unlike Philadelphia Trial Lawyers, who are essentially our competition in a lot of respects, Philadelphia Bar Association does not have many plaintiff’s attorneys. So that’s an evaluation and consideration that I took before I got involved.
Bethany N.
So those are two professional organizations I’ve been involved with. I’ve been peripherally involved in the Brandeis Law Society, which is the Jewish law society. And there are other organizations that I’ve been involved with that are not necessarily legal professional organizations, but American Jewish Committee I’ve been very involved with. I’m a fan of that organization. And also Philadelphia VIP, which is a pro bono organization.
Are Leadership Roles Important to Young Lawyer Networking?
Danelsy M.
Can we talk about how important it is to actually get involved at a leadership level? I feel like the both of you have been actively involved taking leadership roles at some of these organizations. Devoting the time, billable hours versus hours dedicated to serve in these different places, how important it is to actually dedicate the time to do that.
Bethany N.
It’s certainly difficult and you have to make an evaluation as a young attorney as to whether it’s something that is going to be accepted in your own law firm. Is it something that the leadership is going to be supportive of or not supportive of? Because as a young attorney, a lot of firms take the position that your job is to be in the office working. So if you make an evaluation of that and that’s a determination that your firm is not interested in you doing that, then certainly you should consider not doing that. But leadership roles are important because it gives you a kind of name notoriety. People know who you are, and that’s what this business is about. It’s really, at the end of the day, just getting your name out there. So, leadership opportunities give you an opportunity to have your name on emails, and publications, and presenting at different events. So I think that it is important for you to get yourself out there and it gives you more visibility within the legal community.
JP Faunes
Yeah, for sure. So, that aspect of my involvement in some of the groups that I’m involved with has been enriching for the reasons that Bethany just mentioned for sure. But also because I think that to some extent if you care about a thing, you have an obligation to ensure that it is functioning well, that you are making advancements for the group, and that you are sort of taking what the folks who went before you did and moving the ball along. And to some extent, I mean in a lot of these organizations they’re thirsty for young leaders. They’re thirsty to sort of pass on the lessons and to ensure that whatever achievements have been made are protected and grown. And that’s been sort of an important part of… I mean, obviously the PTLA and PAJ are landmark organizations with tremendous past leaders, tremendous current leaders, and tremendous future leaders, I’m sure. But that’s something that we hear a lot from those folks is it’s important that young lawyers get involved. And to sort of take responsibility for continued success, not only of the membership of those groups, but also the people that they represent.
JP Faunes
I mean, it’s important that all of the political sort of maneuvering that the PTLA does, the PAJ does. It’s important not only because it protects the practice and the work that we do is important, but it also continues to keep access to justice open for our clients who rely on that. So, that part of it’s enriching personally and professionally. And it’s the kind of thing where if you get involved in a group, it’s not as if you’re going to have a dearth of opportunity to advance yourself if that’s what you want to do. If you’re the kind of person who can commit the time and the competence to do it, then you’ll have those opportunities if you want them.
How Much Time Should a Young Lawyer Spend Networking?
Danelsy M.
So, let’s talk about time invested in these sorts of endeavors. So, do you have a set of weekly hours you devote towards networking, engaging in different events. And if so, how have you been able to manage the work versus the time to meet people in terms of weighing in on a weekly basis?
JP Faunes
It’s been really helpful to have Bethany come on board here at the firm because she’s so active.
Danelsy M.
Oh, look at you.
JP Faunes
Oh my God, it’s incredible. And Oh, another shout out. I know that we were talking about leadership before. Bethany just won a big election to join..
Danelsy M.
Just brag. Just brag.
JP Faunes
Just a YLD leader now.
Bethany N.
You’re embarrassing me.
JP Faunes
Could not be happier about that. Future chancellor of the bar, no question about that. But no, it’s tough in terms of the time commitment. But having someone else in the shop who is committed to being out there, committed to doing things as much as practical, as much as is possible. It’s helpful to kind of keep the fire lit. I’m always thinking, “Can we be doing more to ensure that we as a firm are out there, and meeting people, and making a good impression.” So that part’s helpful. And then the rest of it is just kind of… Everybody works a lot and it’s hard to ensure that you’re not only fully committed to what you’re doing professionally, but also taking care of yourself personally.
JP Faunes
And so, I think having a sharp distinction and having someone else in your life, a partner who can say, “Hey. This is too much. You can’t do every single night at a networking event. You can’t have a lunch every single day.” Is really helpful. So for me, I’ve been really blessed that that’s had its own natural balance. If it was up to me, I’d be between friends, and networking events, and that kind of stuff. I’d just be out all the time and that’s no longer possible in my life. So, that’s been a blessing.
Danelsy M.
Newly married.
JP Faunes
Yeah.
Bethany N.
I think that if you want to be a successful attorney and you also want to be a successful business generator, you cannot have the attitude that I’m going to do everything in nine to five. You have to realize that there’s going to be a balance and you’re going to have to spend more time in the office, whether it be early in the morning, late at night, on the weekends to compensate for those breakfast meetings, those lunch meetings, those drinks, those after work events where you end up leaving the office at 5:00. So for me, it’s really having a schedule and a plan that recognizes that there are times when I’m out from the office for various networking events and I’m going to have to make up for that time.
Bethany N.
You cannot expect to get all your work done, and meet everyone’s expectations, and fulfill your responsibilities if you are taking working time and then gearing it toward networking time. For me, networking time is something that I almost consider to be personal in nature. While it benefits the firm and while at the end of the day it’s part of my job, my job is to do work. So, the way I look at it is that it’s an added bonus. It’s something that I can do to get away from work. It’s an outlet, but I’m going to have to make up that time some way or another because I’m not sitting at my desk doing work.
JP Faunes
I commend you. There is no way that I could… I would have a mental breakdown in almost no time because it’s enjoyable, and it’s fun to go meet people, and do all that stuff. But man, that’s a heavy burden that you put on yourself to be out there doing this stuff all the time. And that doesn’t count at all. So you really do, you partition in your mind this does not count as work. This isn’t my work life, this is my personal life.
Bethany N.
Absolutely, because I enjoy it. I enjoy going out meeting people, having a glass of wine. It’s not something that I view as work at all. And I certainly understand that other people cannot do that. It’s something they don’t enjoy. They don’t like going to meet with strangers. And certainly I felt that way at the beginning, but over time it’s been a complete outlet for me. It’s a way that I relax. It’s a way that I get away from the stresses of work. So I completely separate them in my mind in terms of personal time, networking time, work time.
JP Faunes
All right, well there you go. That’s two tacks on how to handle it.
Danelsy M.
Now, would you say you spend let’s say two, three hours a week? Can you give me an estimated amount of time? I mean, I’m trying to pull some tips for people in terms of what’s-
Bethany N.
Sure. It really varies from week to week. There are certainly weeks where I’ll have three lunches and an event, and it gets a little bit out of control where I’m spending five or six hours networking. Or it could be this week where I have a lot of things going on, and maybe I’m only spending two or three hours networking. So it really depends on the week, the season, what’s going on. But for me, I always keep sight of what’s coming up in the next few weeks, what’s going on. And when I reach out to someone because part of my networking is constantly reaching out to people and saying, “Do you want to have breakfast? Do you want to have lunch? Do you want to get drinks?” So when I’m doing that, I’m scheduling it in a manner where I’m not overloading myself, where I say, “Okay, well I already have two events that week,” or, “I already have three meetings that week, so let’s push it off to the next week.” So it’s really about planning and making sure that your schedule is not getting out of control so that you’re not over committing yourself.
What Networking Strategies Work Best for Young Lawyers?
Danelsy M.
Okay. So, let’s talk about being intentional about types of events you actually pick and choose to go to. And why is it so important to actually have a strategic plan before attending anything and everything you’re invited to because you’ll never be in the office if that’s the case.
JP Faunes
Yeah, right.
Danelsy M.
Get any work done.
JP Faunes
And I think maybe the right way to think about this going forward is that I feel that I dislike networking events, and Bethany likes them. So, probably if you’re listening to this, you fall-
Danelsy M.
This is a great contrast.
JP Faunes
Yeah, you fall into one of those two buckets. I think you have to. So for me, I’m someone who genuinely dislikes going and I think that it’s only because-
Danelsy M.
Why?
JP Faunes
… because it feels not only forced, but to some degree I’ve always come into it with a mindset that like, “All right. Well, everybody’s here. Everyone’s having the same-
Danelsy M.
It’s not natural, basically.
JP Faunes
… two-minute conversation. There’s no genuineness to this interaction.” And I’m a, outside of work, very pro-social person and I’m energized by my relationships with friends and family and loved ones. So when I come into a setting like a networking event, I immediately come into it with a thought that like, “All right, everyone here’s being fake. Everyone here’s having the same one to two-minute conversation.”
Danelsy M.
This is great.
JP Faunes
Well look, if part of what we’re trying to do here is… I think that probably there’s a number of people who feel the same way, particularly young lawyers. I remember feeling this way, certainly every time I would go to a networking event as a first or second or third year lawyer because you’d meet somebody, “Hey, how are you? What do you do? Tell me about your practice. Great. Do you enjoy it? Good. Very nice to meet you.” Onto the next person. And there was something that was not totally genuine about those sort of interactions that I always struggled to… I can’t get outside of my own head. I’m always thinking like, “They’re thinking this too.” The person I’m talking to is having the same thought process. So we’re both kind of faking each other.
Bethany N.
That’s what I thought when I met you.
JP Faunes
Right. Right. But my point has been if I can get myself out of that space in my head. And the only reason that I ever have any sort of success or fun at networking events is because I’m able to do that and say, “Well, I’m going to try to have a genuine conversation here and get to know a smaller number of people, but in a genuine sort of deeper way.” And that’ll be enriching for me. And then I can just kind of go… In addition to a nice base of one or two drinks. It’s much easier to sort of have a conversation when you have a commitment to actually building a relationship with somebody as opposed to circulating around a room as much as possible to meet as many people as possible, which I’m not good at faking that.
Bethany N.
My first suggestion was going to be, have you tried to mix alcohol into this process?
Danelsy M.
Well?
JP Faunes
Oh, I tried. Oh Bethany, I tried.
Bethany N.
I think for me, I certainly had that attitude that you have when I was starting out. And absolutely, there are times when I go to an event, and I get there, and I say, “Oh God, I don’t know a single person here. I don’t want to talk to any of these people. Why am I here?” Certainly that happens to me. But for me, when I developed the attitude that networking is not about instant gratification, I felt better about it. When I go into a room, when I meet people, I am not thinking, “I’m here to get business. I’m here to get referrals.” I’ve taken that pressure off of myself. My goal is to get out there, meet people, get my name out, have nice conversations, and enjoy myself, have a glass of wine, laugh, have a good time.
Bethany N.
And I’m able to do that through networking. And through networking in Philadelphia in the legal community, I’ve somehow met some of my closest friends. So, I think a lot of young lawyers go into networking with the purpose of I have to get business, I need to get something out of this. And if you take that off of yourself, at least for me, it makes the process more enjoyable. And the more you do it, the more you become accustomed of talking to people that you don’t know. And it’s funny, I mean, I had a lunch recently where it was an impossible conversation. It was one hour of an impossible conversation because the more you learn to network and the more you get out there, the more you learn how to talk to anyone. I can have a one-hour conversation with anyone. But still you’re going to come across those people where you’re like, “Oh my God, this lunch is like pulling teeth.”
Bethany N.
But I think the more you do it, the more you get out there, the more you don’t focus on your end result, the more it’s going to benefit you. Now, going back to the point of being strategic, I think it’s very difficult in terms of what JP and I do in terms of plaintiff’s work, it’s hard to be strategic. It’s hard to know where is your next case going to come from. So I’ve evaluated who are my referral sources, who sends me the most cases, what types of events are they involved with? And I target those types of individuals. But as someone who enjoys networking, I also go to events where I know no business is ever going to come out of this. So you have to kind of balance that and determine what are your goals, how much time do you want to put toward this, and come up with a plan of action.
JP Faunes
Yeah. So, I totally agree with that. I think we get to the same place by different paths. The most rewarding parts of the networking experience for me have just happened to coincide with the professional networks that I guess would help someone in plaintiff’s practice develop a referral base over time. But it just makes the practice in a small legal market like Philadelphia so much more enjoyable when there are people that you look forward to seeing, that you enjoy being around, that you connect with. And I’ve certainly met most of those people through the various organizations that I’m involved in. And often, I guess, through the networking events that you kind of feel compelled to go to for whatever reason. I know that Bethany enjoys them. Not everyone enjoys going to them, but they can be rewarding if you keep an open mind and either concentrate on having an enriching experience with someone or don’t focus on what you’re getting out of it. I think both of those are good mental sort of places to be in when you attack it.
Bethany N.
And don’t focus on your competition either. I know that when you and I go to a lot of these networking events, there are lawyers there that we compete against for cases every day. And I would tell people, “Don’t focus on that. Be friends with those people.” There are benefits to that. And you shouldn’t be so caught up on, “Are they getting cases from this person? I’m not getting cases from this person. They’re doing better than me. I’m not doing better than them.” Don’t focus on that. Don’t focus on the end result. Focus on making meaningful connections where people like you, that’s what’s important.
JP Faunes
Yeah, that whole comparative analysis is… In life too. I hate that whole idea that, “Oh man. I would be so much happier if I just had X, Y, and Z,” or, “I can see it across the street. This person is doing this and succeeding in this way. And if there was just a way for me to get that house or whatever it is, that thing that they have, I’m going to be so happy.” And it’s just not true. It’s never been true. It’s not true. And I think that that’s probably true as well in our practice. That’s why it’s so easy really to be friendly with competition. I think that especially for plaintiff’s lawyers, the rising tide does lift all ships. It’s great when somebody gets a big result or a big verdict because that’s good for the practice. That’s good for their client. They made a wonderful impact on someone’s life. And I think it really says a lot about the standard of plaintiff’s practice here in Pennsylvania.
How Do You Network in a Room Full of People You Don’t Know?
Danelsy M.
So, I want to talk a little bit about… Going back to walking in a room and not knowing anyone, right. Goals from right out of law school to at any stage in your career, you are bound to walk into some sort of event at some point where it’s completely outside of your comfort zone. So number one, I think in my experience, the industry as a whole, I would say 98% of attorneys are introverts in a sense where their comfort zone, it’s courtroom, it’s what they do. Outside of that, it’s like, “Okay, and then I have to walk in there and do what?” So how do you actually come out of that? How do you actually get comfortable? I know it takes time, but you walk in a room for the first time, what would you do? What can you advise people to do?
Bethany N.
Well first of all, that is definitely not a description of me.
Danelsy M
Certainly.
Bethany N.
Most are.
Danelsy M.
You’re the top 2%.
Bethany N.
Not a description of me. But if you find yourself walking into a room and you’re terrified and you don’t know anyone, look around and figure out who’s the second most terrified person in the room who doesn’t want to be there and go talk to that person. Inevitably there’s someone standing in the corner that’s very lonely-looking-
Danelsy M.
That would be me.
Bethany N.
That’s very lonely-looking, that is very easy to approach, and for you to go to talk to. And then if there’s nobody like that, if I see two people talking and I’m by myself, I have no problem kind of scooting over and introducing myself and involving myself in that conversation. So, after I go to the bar and get myself a drink, I would do those two things.
JP Faunes
Yeah, you budge in. You’re a master of the budge in. Can I make this circle a square? That kind of thing.
Bethany N.
Yes.
JP Faunes
Yeah, I like that.
Danelsy M.
Pretty much.
JP Faunes
So yeah, I would say for me it’s Don Julio, just one, rocks. Then I’m in a good place. I find it’s conversational for whatever reason. That’s a conversational alcohol for me.
Danelsy M.
Oh my God.
Effective Networking Techniques for Young Lawyers
JP Faunes
So the tips and tricks portion of the podcast. These are tips and tricks that I’ve heard from others that I do not employ. I think they’re probably helpful for some people, I don’t know. But they do make sense to me on an intuitive level.
Bethany N.
Theory.
JP Faunes
In theory, right. So here’s a couple. One is-
Bethany N.
You’ve never practiced them.
JP Faunes
Right. So one is, and I like this one because it’s a game theory math. It’s a kind of math. You go in there with seven business cards, or ten business cards, or whatever. And then when you leave, make sure you have none of the business cards in your pocket. Don’t allow yourself to leave the networking event until you’ve handed out each one of those business cards, and don’t cheat and hand 10 to one person. That’s a good way, I think. I’ve never tried it, but that sounds like a good way to make sure that you have that number of conversations if you really have to force yourself to circulate through a crowd of people.
JP Faunes
Another one is, and this happens all the time, you get there and there is that person that you know, or that you came with, or whatever. And then you’re glued to that individual for the entire time that you’re there because you’re in your safe space, in the tree of trust, and nobody can hurt you up.
Bethany N.
Terrible.
JP Faunes
Right. And you just have to force yourself to get out of that. There’s got to be a countdown. This was good. I feel I’ve used this opportunity to survey the room. And I’m just going to take the leap, and walk across, and just look somebody in the eye, and say, “Hello.” And you’re not going to die. I’ve never heard one story of a person ending up dead-
Bethany N.
As a result of networking.
JP Faunes
Yeah, just going to a networking event and dying.
Bethany N.
Death by networking.
JP Faunes
So it’ll be totally fine. It’s not that scary once you commit to it. The non-Bethanys who are there, the other 98% of people, they’re all like, “Oh man. This networking event is kind of brutal.” So just go talk to them and it’ll be fine.
Bethany N.
So, one comment on your in-theory but not in-practice recommendation.
JP Faunes
Oh, you put it in practice.
Bethany N.
No, no, no. I have not. But with regard to the business cards, I’m okay with what you’re saying. Seven to ten business cards sounds like a good plan.
JP Faunes
I’m the messenger. This is not my plan.
Bethany N.
But I’ve always been at events there’s always one jerk who has-
JP Faunes
Walking around handing-
Bethany N.
… like 30 business cards. He doesn’t even shake your hand, give you his name, “Hi.” Hands the cards.
Danelsy M.
Keeps it moving.
Bethany N.
Yeah, “Hi. Hi. Hi. Hi.” That is not effective.
JP Faunes
Don’t take in one of those $1 bill guns from the strip club and shoot out your card to a bunch of people.
Bethany N.
What?
JP Faunes
I’m saying take seven in there, and have seven two-minute conversations, and hand that person your business card.
I’m just making sure that that’s not what your intention was.
JP Faunes
No. No, no. No, that’s carried to the extreme. You can make anything sound ridiculous.
Bethany N.
Okay. And one other follow-up, if I may, with regard to the business cards. When you’re handing out the seven business cards and you say, “And you go home and your pocket is empty,” you should have seven other people’s business cards in your pocket. And I know you’re laughing at me, but for me an-
Danelsy M.
Top 2%.
JP Faunes
Top 2%.
Bethany N.
No, but an important-
Bethany N.
… part of networking is follow-up. It’s absolutely meaningless. How many times, how many people go to events, they get business cards, they throw them in a drawer, and they never do anything. I always go back to my office, sit at my desk, and send follow-up emails, “It was nice meeting you. Would you like to have a drink?”
JP Faunes
So you go back to the office from the networking event and start tapping out emails to the people you just met.
Bethany N.
Well, no, no. I mean, that’s-
JP Faunes
That’s a 2% move. You need to-
Bethany N.
Next day. Next day.
Danelsy M.
We will cover that in a second though.
Bethany N.
I’m sorry.
Danelsy M.
We’re actually going to cover that.
Bethany N.
Sorry, I’m a little out of control.
Danelsy M.
I do want to go back to comparing yourself. And body language is everything. So when you walk into these rooms and your confidence level, it’s not where it should be. Any tips on that, holding your own, going in with the mindset that it’s not that you’re better than everybody, but you have your own list of acumens and accomplishments that you are to be proud of. So when you walk in there, don’t be the one person that feels too small based on what the room looks like.
JP Faunes
Yeah. So, my advice would just be to be yourself. It’s hard. And I think we covered some of this in an earlier podcast, but I don’t know. So, Alan Feldman, and Mark Tanner, and Dan Weinstock, and Carol Nelson Shepherd all have these gigantic… They’re way better trial lawyers than I am and they do things in a way that I can’t do them. So that when I present a case to a jury, I can’t be any of those individuals. That’s exactly the same thing for going to a networking event or any sort of setting where the goal is to meet people and talk about your practice and do all these things.
JP Faunes
I can’t go in and fake some weird confidence that doesn’t really exist. It has to come from a place of I genuinely believe myself to be a relatively nice person who cares about what you have to say. So if I go in with the idea that I’m not there to be a big time pinstripe suit-wearing lawyer, and I’m interested to meet you and hear about what your story is and what you do, then it’s a lot easier for me to not worry about what everybody else is doing, and like, “Oh man, how cool is that person over there?” It doesn’t come into my brain as much.
Networking Tips for Young Female Lawyers
Bethany N.
A few random comments. Number one, a lot of women suffer from something called imposter syndrome.
Danelsy M.
Yes. That is huge.
Bethany N.
Where they have low self-confidence.
JP Faunes
Poor kids at rich schools do as well. You guys don’t own that. That’s not yours.
Danelsy M.
Oh boy. Anyway.
Bethany N.
So, a lot of women suffer that and they don’t have a high confidence and high self-esteem. And I think that there’s a misperception that… For example, people think that I have a lot of self-confidence and that I think very highly of myself, and that’s something that I’ve been accused of. But I think it’s because I know how to project and exude self-confidence. And I think that that’s something you can do even if you don’t have it. It’s a way that you carry yourself. It’s a way that you talk to people. You can learn how to exude self-confidence. That’s number one.
Bethany N.
Number two, in my experiences with networking and generating business, even though there are people out there that have big verdicts, have impressive credentials, have a lot of experience. Most of the time I’m referred cases because people know me and they like me. They have a relationship with me, they had a good conversation with me, and they like me as a person. So I think if you remember that, that a lot about business is not about the results that you’ve achieved. It’s not about the press that you get, but it’s about people liking you as a person. Then I think that you can have a lot more self-confidence walking into a room and saying, “It’s about making connections with people that are meaningful, and having people like me, and that’s how I’m going to get results.”
Danelsy M.
So, going back to that point about women and-
Bethany N.
Oh, no.
Danelsy M.
… that whole imposter syndrome, which it’s such a trendy phrase, or word, or term these days. Let’s talk about being the only or the few women in the room when you walk into one of those networking events and being the one of two.
JP Faunes
Hold on Bethany, I’ll take this one.
Danelsy M.
Okay. The floor is yours.
Bethany N.
I feel like we’re in the middle of a therapy session all of a sudden.
Danelsy M.
I feel like that happens quite often. Given that the industry is male-dominated or our area of law, it’s male-dominated. Can you talk a little bit about that? Have you experienced that? Have you-
Bethany N.
Sure, it’s something I experience all the time. For me, it’s not something that bothers me because diversity is good. And when I walk into a room, and it’s all men, and everyone looks the same, I, in my mind say, “Oh, people want to talk to me. I look interesting. I’m different. It’s a different conversation that they can have. It’s a younger person, something refreshing, a different perspective.” So I never look at it as a negative thing and I truly think that it’s to my benefit. I think that I’ve built relationships with men and with more seasoned attorneys because they found it refreshing to deal with someone with a different perspective, to deal with someone that’s still happy and enthusiastic about being an attorney, someone who likes what they’re doing. So, I’ve never looked at it as a disadvantage and I truly believe that it is an advantage.
Strategies for Maintaining Relationships with Your Networking Connections
Danelsy M.
Yeah, certainly. So, if we go into those relationships that you’ve built over time, how do you foster those relationships? How do you actually keep up? How do you maintain those relationships over time to make sure that you stay top of mind? Anything that you can offer, tips on that?
JP Faunes
Sorry, I was still thinking about imposter syndrome. Really I was.
Danelsy M.
Should I repeat that?
JP Faunes
No, no. It’s interesting because I mean that’s something that everyone… It’s not just.
Danelsy M.
This is really a therapy session.
JP Faunes
Imposter syndrome applies to minorities in white-dominated professional fields. It applies to scholarship students who go to wonderful schools. So many different types of people feel imposter syndrome, and the proof ends up being in the pudding. Just be competent, be hardworking, be a good lawyer, be a good person. And it all ends up shaking out in the end, I think. And at least in my experience, the more detrimental aspect of imposter syndrome has not been a fear of not being good enough. It’s been an anger that it exists and a chip on the shoulder about what you need to do to make sure that it doesn’t happen to somebody else or to change the thing. And that’s a lot of pressure to put on yourself, in my experience,
Danelsy M.
I mean, at the end of the day it’s a matter of remaining who you are. Like you said, people actually get back to you because they liked the conversation they’ve had with you. They like you as a person, whatever the conversation was about, they enjoyed. So, it’s remaining who you are at the end of the day regardless of who’s in the room or not.
JP Faunes
Right. So, keeping up with professional contacts. It becomes easier the more that you invest personally in your professional contacts, the more that you become friends with those people, the more that you make an effort. I mean, effort’s so important. All of these things take time and they take care. So you just have to take the time to follow along with your contact’s successes and be available to help when things aren’t going well, or if they need sort of guidance, or to bounce ideas off you, or help with a brief, or whatever. Just take the time to be available. And then just be friendly. Just continue to be friends, and make time for each other, and it’ll work out.
Bethany N.
I think that just like being strategic about who you target for networking, it’s important that you be strategic in terms of your follow-up with your contacts. And I’ve been here at Feldman Shepherd for five months now, but before that I was not here and I didn’t have the amazing marketing support that I do now. So for me, it was important that I had a strategic business plan for not only business generation, but follow-up. And I can see JP’s already laughing at me.
JP Faunes
No, no. I’m all like, “Oh yeah, it’ll be totally fine. Just like hanging out with your friends.” And she’s like, “I have a strategy.”
Danelsy M.
And she’s like, “This is my plan.”
JP Faunes
“Here are the bullet points.” No-
Danelsy M.
“Here are the numbers.”
JP Faunes
… I’m very interested in this. By the way, the marketing shout-out goes to Danelsy. That’s our marketing person.
Danelsy M.
Thank you.
Bethany N.
Great. So for me, it’s all about contact. I truly believe that every time you reach out and connect with a person, it may result in a referral. And I find that it’s true. So before I worked here, I had a very strategic plan where I had my own newsletter and I would send out the newsletter four times a year. I also focused on gifts. People-
JP Faunes
Oh yeah, I remember this one.
Bethany N.
… love-
JP Faunes
This is good.
Bethany N.
… gifts. And they don’t have to be expensive or complex gifts, but they have to be fun and creative. So if I have a new attorney that sends me a case for the first time, they get a box of peeps.
JP Faunes
Why is that, Bethany? Why do they get a box of peeps?
Bethany N.
Thank you for sending me your peeps.
JP Faunes
Oh, man.
Bethany N.
So…
Danelsy M.
I have no comment about that.
JP Faunes
You just can’t make that up.
Danelsy M.
That is brilliant by the way.
Bethany N.
It was not my idea, but…
JP Faunes
You cannot make that up.
Bethany N.
So, everyone sends Christmas gifts. I always send Thanksgiving gifts to my referral sources, thanking them for sending me their cases. I send gifts July 4th. I’ve sent all sorts of random holidays. Oh, Valentine’s Day I always send something to my referral sources, some small token with a message thanking them. So-
JP Faunes
What’s your President’s Day gift? That’s coming up. Is that just money? Do you just send to people?
Bethany N.
I’ve never done President’s Day, but I will think about that and get back to you. But I really believe. For example, every time the newsletter went out, I would get calls from people that I hadn’t heard from a while, “Oh, I have a case for you. Can I send you a client?” Or, “Thank you so much for the gift.” Don’t be focused on the thank yous. People really don’t say thank you that much, which is kind of sad. But when I would run into people on the street, “Oh I really always love getting your gifts. I love getting your packages in the mail. They make me so happy.”
Bethany N.
So, it’s about for me, having a strategic plan of follow-up. You can’t just meet someone for drinks and then never talk to them again. You have to figure out how you can keep them in your life. And here at Feldman Shepherd, it’s great because we have a newsletter that I don’t have to be so involved with anymore that reaches out and connects with my contacts and gives them a reminder, “Oh, there’s Feldman Shepherd. Oh, I have a case. Oh, I should give Bethany a call.” So it’s just reminding people that you are out there, that you are available for work, and you can help them without ever asking. I think that’s the most important part. I’ve never made an ask.
Danelsy M.
Anything to add on that?
JP Faunes
On the gifts front? No.
Danelsy M.
On the peeps?
JP Faunes
I got no peeps-related advice for you folks. But I mean, that sounds right. What you just said sounds like a good tactic, and it’s obviously been working for you, so.
Danelsy M.
So the people that you meet for the first time though, are you sending handwritten notes? What’s the follow-up with your… Do you send a welcome email? Welcome to the team.
JP Faunes
I got to know what this is.
Bethany N.
So two things. Handwritten notes are impossible because my handwriting is terrible. So for me, I always send an email follow-up. I’ve also discovered a website recently that’s tremendous. It’s called postables-
JP Faunes
Whoa. Wait, wait, wait.
Bethany N.
Oh, I’m sorry.
JP Faunes
We need to get them as a sponsor before we start… I don’t want any.
Danelsy M.
Yeah, yeah. What’s going on over here? Let me just-
JP Faunes
Sorry. Tell the people what it is.
Bethany N.
postables.com. I found a website that basically types, and it looks like handwriting, and I’ve tested it out. So people think that it’s a handwritten note.
Danelsy M.
This is great.
JP Faunes
Oh my God, this is…
Bethany N.
They think that it’s a handwritten note. I tricked my mother.
JP Faunes
Seriously.
Bethany N.
They think it’s a handwritten note and it’s not.
JP Faunes
Sociopath behavior.
Bethany N.
What? What? So you go online, you type out your note, you put in the address, even the envelope looks like it’s handwritten, and they send it for you. So-
JP Faunes
Can you choose different types of handwriting?
Bethany N.
Yes.
JP Faunes
This is incredible.
Bethany N.
So go on there, and look, and check it out.
JP Faunes
I look forward to them being a sponsor of this podcast in the near future.
Bethany N.
Any tips on that? People you meet for the first time, what’s your follow-up process?
JP Faunes
I do like handwritten notes, but I typically don’t do it in the professional context. I do handwritten notes to… I did it for my wife’s family members when I met them for the first time, or stay at somebody’s house, that kind of thing. The follow-up email is enough for me and it’s usually… If I am interested in talking to somebody and developing a relationship with that person, I want to be in person with that individual again as soon as possible. So I’m always looking to go for a meal, or go to a game, or something like that because those are genuinely fun and I feel like I’m better one-on-one with somebody than I am in correspondence.
Bethany N.
Just a quick comment on the follow-up. When you meet someone at an event, and you get a card, and you do a follow-up, people don’t respond all the time. So, just know that you’re going to send an email and people are going to totally blow you off, and don’t get discouraged. And JP’s laughing at me because clearly that never happens to him.
JP Faunes
No.
Danelsy M.
Clearly.
Bethany N.
But don’t get discouraged and know that that’s going to happen.
Danelsy M.
Now, do you send a follow-up to everyone who gave you a business card or again, is there a strategy behind who you send a follow-up to?
Bethany N.
It depends on what type of event you’re going and who you’re connecting with. If you’re going to an event that’s not all attorneys, and you go home at the end of the night, and you have a bunch of cards from people that are not necessarily really part of your network or who are going to help you, then I don’t always follow up with everybody. Or you go to an event, and you meet someone, and you get some weird vibe or the person creeps you out, you don’t have to follow up with that person. So definitely-
JP Faunes
That’s a good rule.
Bethany N.
You don’t always have to follow up with everybody. But certainly if I’m going out and meeting attorneys, I try to follow up with everyone I meet.
Danelsy M.
And what’s the timing in terms of you meet them today, do you send something tomorrow? Do you send something next week? Do you reach out again after the first time.
Bethany N.
It certainly depends on how busy you are, if you have a lot going on. But for me, I try to do it the next day. I think that that’s what works the best. But certainly there are times when I pull out a big stack a week later and start shooting off emails.
JP Faunes
I’m big into the card ends up in one of the pockets. And then I’m out for the rest of the night. And then the dry cleaner or whatever, there’ll be a card. I’d be like, “All right.” So it’ll be whenever the card resurfaces. Or it’ll be when I meet them in a more intimate context. It’s not a huge networking event I met 100 people, then it’s easier the next day to shoot an email, say, “Hey man, it was great to speak with you today.”
Danelsy M.
Unless it was somebody that you really needed to get back to, like hold on.
JP Faunes
Yeah, I don’t know-
Danelsy M.
You don’t lose that card.
JP Faunes
It’s weird. Maybe I’m in the minority on this. I’ve always considered the professional success that I think that is the most enriching and that you can trust coming the most is based on the quality of your work and your ability, at least as a trial attorney, to present in a courtroom to take strong depositions, to do all the nuts and bolts thing. So, to me that’s always where I’m focused and I want clients to be happy. I want referrals, sources to speak to those clients and hear that I did a great job or whatever it is. And that kind of is where I focus a lot of my energy. The rest of it is more personally enriching. It’s more like I enjoy the Philadelphia legal community. I like a lot of these lawyers, a lot of them are really smart people who know a lot about different areas of law that I don’t know anything about. And not just legally. They’re just smart, bright people who are fun to talk to. So, I guess my professional networking is more like a byproduct of my desire to have friends who are cool.
Bethany N.
So you do enjoy networking.
JP Faunes
I enjoy-
Bethany N.
You’ve come full circle.
Danelsy M.
Yes, he has.
JP Faunes
I don’t enjoy networking events as much as I enjoy hanging out with people and talking to them.
Networking Through Public Speaking and Writing
Danelsy M.
So, now let’s go over public speaking and writing as a way to build your profile, but also build a network. Have you done that? Number one, how have you been able to utilize those opportunities to grow new relationships in general?
Bethany N.
I think that speaking and writing are fantastic opportunities for any young lawyer because at the end of the day, like networking, like going to events, like anything, it’s about getting your name out. It’s about getting people to know who you are. That is absolutely half the battle. So if you’re able to publish an article in The Legal, that’s a fantastic opportunity that you should absolutely take advantage of. And once that article is in The Legal, please go back, post it on your Facebook page, post it on your LinkedIn because it’s all about not only publishing, but getting people to read it and getting people to know what you’re doing.
Bethany N.
And speaking, also very good way to get yourself out there. What I’d have to say with speaking though is make sure it’s a worthwhile opportunity. I found myself stuck two or three years ago. I did one CLE for an organization. And the CLE turned out being in Bethlehem, in the middle of nowhere, at a hotel where I put a lot of time and effort into preparing and presenting for five people. And I kind of got on their list and got sucked into doing these speaking opportunities every other month. And it was a lot of work and a lot of time. So, make sure-
Danelsy M.
When you’re right out of law school, are those opportunities a waste of time?
Bethany N.
Absolutely not. When you’re right out of law school, you need the experience, you need to know what you’re doing. So I don’t think it’s a waste of time-
Danelsy M.
Get comfortable. Right.
Bethany N.
But I think if you find yourself putting a lot of time and energy into it, and it’s in the middle of nowhere, and there aren’t that many people, after a certain amount of times, you have to decide whether it’s something that’s worthwhile or not. So don’t get sucked into that. But otherwise, I don’t think that a young attorney should be turning down opportunities to speak, to write. And given the age of the internet and technology, there’s more opportunities than ever.
JP Faunes
Yeah. Certainly for all young attorneys, if you get an opportunity to do something like that, you should. I like public speaking not because I like public speaking or because I was ever, as a kid or a college student, good at it, but because it’s fundamental to the practice. And the only way to get better at it is to do it. So, there’s a learning aspect to it that’s invaluable. So every opportunity you have to get up and speak in front of a bunch of people, you should take it. And then learn from the experience. Just hear your own voice, get comfortable in the space, get comfortable with what you do with your body, sort of your body language while you speak. And so, that aspect of it, it’s been great and rewarding.
JP Faunes
And I try to say yes as much as possible to that kind of stuff. And then writing, in my opinion, that’s the most fundamental building block of being a good lawyer is an ability to write. So yeah, certainly if you can write something for publication, you should do it for the reasons that Bethany just said, but also because the more that you write, the better you get at it. And unfortunately, there’s a lot of not that great writers out there. Over the course of your career, you’ll read briefs that are just not good. They’re not well written. And I don’t think the standard’s extraordinarily high out there generally. So, you can really put yourself ahead if you develop a skillset in writing that’s even passable. So it’s definitely worth it.
How Can Young Lawyers Use Social Media to Network?
Danelsy M.
So, going back to your point about sharing articles and things on social media. So, have you used social media to, I guess, build a network? Have you been able to actually meet new people through, let’s say, LinkedIn, the sharing of your articles? How have you used social media to your advantage in that sense?
Bethany N.
I always want to try to improve my use of social media. And again, JP’s going to laugh at me, but there have been many years where my new year’s resolution was to improve my use of social media and get better at it because I think that it’s something that’s very important. I don’t think it’s been a platform that I’ve used to build new relationships, but it’s been a platform that I’ve used to enhance my connection with my contacts already. At one point in time I spoke with someone who was giving me advice that said that on a platform like LinkedIn, you should really only be connected with people that you know.
Bethany N.
And I agree with that to a certain extent because people often reach out to me and say, “Oh, I see you’re connected with so and so. Can you make the introduction?” And if I don’t know the person, then that’s kind of silly. So I use social media to communicate to my connections that I already know what I’m doing. So again, it’s just another contact, another thing to remind people, “Oh, Bethany, she’s a trial attorney. She does this, she does that.” So that when they have a case or something happens in their life, that I’m the first person they think about.
JP Faunes
Yeah.
Danelsy M.
How about you? Same?
JP Faunes
What was the question?
Danelsy M.
How do you use social media?
JP Faunes
Social media.
Danelsy M.
Yeah.
JP Faunes
I don’t. I just don’t. And I probably should. And that’s not to-
Danelsy M.
I’m not so happy to hear that, obviously.
JP Faunes
I know. It’s the whole-
Bethany N.
Confession time.
JP Faunes
Yeah. It’s the whole thing. I just can’t stand that comparative thing that’s going on in our culture right now. I hate it. I don’t have an Instagram account. I have a Facebook account. It’s been forever since I even logged on to it. But at some point I made a concerted effort to get away from doing it because you start to do it every single day without even realizing it. There was a period of time when I was just logging on when I wasn’t even… I would just look up and be logged onto Facebook for no reason.
Bethany N.
How did that happen?
Danelsy M.
Magic.
JP Faunes
No reason. So I definitely understand there are benefits to it, and more and more using it in the right way can get your message out there. It can get you out there. And I should do more of it. I’m going to make a concerted effort to rely more on the marketing team to give them more work to do, to take over my social media presence. But no, I haven’t been great at using it.
Bethany N.
It’s such a useful tool I found out recently. I mean, you can post on LinkedIn an article that you’ve done or our podcast, for example. And you can see how many people looked at the post. How many people am I reaching? I know how many people I’m reaching? How many people clicked on the link and actually read the article? I can see that and I can use that as a tool to understand what am I doing right, what am I doing wrong, how can I get more people to be looking at my article, or my podcast, or my post?
JP Faunes
I just feel like I won’t have that… That’s what Danelsy does. That’s why we have people who are good at that. And it’s not me.
Danelsy M.
Can you help me out here?
Bethany N.
We have one person for all of us.
JP Faunes
I don’t ask her to do-
Bethany N.
It’s all-
JP Faunes
Not all of us because I don’t ask her to do anything. I’ve never asked anybody to do it, and here’s my concern. All right, here’s why-
Danelsy M.
I did change your picture on LinkedIn, did you notice that?
JP Faunes
I did notice that. Thank you for doing that. I think the last one was me and my mom or something. It was great.
Danelsy M.
Yeah, from 1995 actually.
JP Faunes
I love that photo. So here’s why. So, my only point on the LinkedIn thing that you just said, I mean the idea that you are able somehow to take the information that you’re getting from who has seen it or engaged with it and make a change is incredible to me. I don’t know where you got that skillset or how to develop myself. For me, the concern is like, “Oh man, nobody liked my thing.” Isn’t that what everybody-
Bethany N.
Maybe that’s a personal issue.
JP Faunes
Do you think that’s a personal issue?
Danelsy M.
I feel like this is definitely a therapy session.
JP Faunes
Do you really think so? Because I heard they were thinking about taking likes away from… I think it’s something that’s happening.
Danelsy M.
They took it away already.
JP Faunes
Yeah, that’s right. So it’s not just me. That’s a thing that’s happening. It’s so anxiety-inducing to put something out there-
Danelsy M.
But you still see it though.
JP Faunes
… and then it’s like, “No. Oh, nobody liked my thing. Nobody wished me a happy birthday.” It’s horrible.
Bethany N.
It’s telling you what you need to do better.
JP Faunes
It’s not telling you anything other than people didn’t engage with it. They don’t-
Bethany N.
No, but I know if my post has a photo, more people are going to look at it. If my link to our podcast has a photo, more people are going to look at it.
Danelsy M.
She definitely took a social media class of some sort.
Bethany N.
Absolutely-
JP Faunes
Yeah, but see that’s-
Bethany N.
Absolutely not.
Danelsy M.
I love it.
JP Faunes
Where did that come from? How do you know that?
Bethany N.
I figured it out myself.
JP Faunes
No, there’s no way that that’s true.
Bethany N.
Yes. Absolutely. Looking at LinkedIn, absolutely-
JP Faunes
You took data analytics on this thing.
Bethany N.
No. It says right there, views. You can see very easily.
JP Faunes
Give me your Google search history and we’ll find out if this is true. I guarantee there’s a how do I get people to engage with my content.
Danelsy M.
Try YouTube searching it.
JP Faunes
There’s no way that that’s intuitive to you, and I don’t believe it. I’ll never believe it.
Bethany N.
No.
Danelsy M.
Oh my God.
Bethany N.
But I think that everybody has a personal responsibility as an attorney, if you have an interest, if you want to promote yourself, if you want to do better, if you want to bring in more business, this is part of the market. This is what you have to do and you cannot rely on the one or two marketing people in our office to do that for you. Now, I drive Danelsy absolutely crazy. Can you do this for me? Can you do that for me? Can you help me with this? Can you help me with that? But I also-
Danelsy M.
No comment with a K.
Bethany N.
But I also do a lot of it myself, and I’m interested in it, and I want to improve my social media, and engage with my contacts more.
Danelsy M.
I think the advantage of doing that, it’s also… Right now you’re exposing yourself to a local network, right? Events you go to, if you’re on a newspaper, a magazine ad, so it’s very centered around I’d say, a five mile radius or whatever markets we are promoting. So when you go on social media, you actually expanding your reach to national audiences. So, definitely an opportunity there, especially with articles you’ve written or podcast interviews, anything along those lines as they definitely generate new business. Definitely a way to generate new business.
JP Faunes
So I want to make… I’m not like an old man screaming at clouds here.
Danelsy M.
Minority here.
JP Faunes
I’m not doubting any of what you just said. It’s obviously true.
Danelsy M.
No, but you can’t be all things to all people.
JP Faunes
It’s obviously very true. It’s important. It’s all those things. It’s just a personal failing. I’m not good at it. That’s all. That’s all I’m saying.
Danelsy M.
So, yeah.
Bethany N.
With regard to opening yourself to a national network, that’s again something that you can track. You can see how many people from Philadelphia looks-
Danelsy M.
She took an analytics course.
Bethany N.
No, I didn’t.
JP Faunes
100% there’s no… Just be real.
Bethany N.
How many people? Oh, 10 people from New York looked at this. People from California. It’s part-
Danelsy M.
I am actually very impressed and happy.
Bethany N.
Oh, thank you.
Danelsy M.
to hear this.
Bethany N.
I appreciate that.
How Can Young Lawyers Network Outside the Legal Industry?
Danelsy M.
We’ve talked a lot about building our referral network. How about going outside of that. What have you done? What do you do to expose yourself to audiences outside of the legal industry, if anything? Do you go to events or if you go to even family, friends type of gatherings, what are some of the things you do to foster that and position yourself as an attorney? Who you are, what you do to gain business outside of law?
Bethany N.
It’s important that everyone that you know knows what you do. So for me, that’s a big thing. And again, JP’s laughing at me. So, everyone at The Sporting Club at The Bellevue knows that I’m an attorney. They know what I do and I have people that have contacted me, “I have a family member who has a problem, I have this or that. Can you help me?” So, my husband does real estate and I make sure that everyone he’s involved with knows what I do. He works for a company that’s in commercial real estate. A lot of their tenants happen to be attorneys or other types of people. And I use him for connections or sometimes I help him with renting apartments. And random people, I give them my card, “It was nice to meet you. By the way, I’m an attorney. So, put yourself out there and make sure that people know what you do even if they’re not in your network, even if they’re not attorneys.
JP Faunes
Yeah, that all sounds right too. I mean that sounds like exactly what you should do. So I’m just really lucky on the personal side of things. I went to college here, I went to grad school here. I just have a lot of good close relationships here. So, that part of it is kind of a natural area where just from talking to people in those circles, they kind of know what I do generally. And then I’ve never… I had a buddy of mine once tell me, “You should never do $100 job, you should do a favor.” And I’ve kind of taken that to heart. I get called on all kinds of weird stuff that I don’t know anything about, and it takes a little bit of time to research it, to help out, to give some advice. But I think that probably, again, in the long sense of things, in the aggregate, probably that does some benefit. I have no analytics to demonstrate that me doing that has improved sort of my draw. But it’s I think probably over the long term going to be fine.
JP Faunes
And then the other side is service. I think you should be service-oriented. I think you have an obligation to be service-oriented as an attorney, and particularly if you preach certain fundamental things in your life that you care about, certain ethical codes or really just morals that you believe in, then you kind of have an obligation to go out, and practice that purpose in the real world, and to serve the community in some context. So, if you’re willing to do that and take the time to do that on a weekend or on MLK day, for example, which is coming up, over time, again, I think that you have an opportunity to meet a lot of people that you wouldn’t otherwise meet who will get to know you as a person, get to know your competence level, and get to know that you’re a lawyer who practices in a certain space. And I think over time probably that’ll get your name out there too.
What Should Young Attorneys Do During Their First Three Years of Practice to Build a Professional Network?
Danelsy M.
Okay. So, let’s go back to first three years out of law school. If we could do one thing different in terms of how you build your professional network, how you approach networking as a whole, what would that be?
Bethany N.
I admittedly did not do anything in my first three years of practice in terms of building a network. So it would have been to build a network. It would have been to connect with people, get out there, and start building a network because I think it’s important that it’s something that you do early on because it’s not something that can be done overnight. It’s something that has to be done over a lifetime, over a career. So, start early and do it.
JP Faunes
I can’t remember where I heard this, but I heard someone say recently… I think it might’ve been Conan O’Brien, weirdly. I think I heard Conan O’Brien in an interview say about some young person who was asking him for advice, You have less to lose than you think you do,” which I don’t necessarily agree with in terms of a black and white statement. But in terms of time, I definitely do agree with that. I think that no matter what happens in your life, you are going to get busier. You’re going to have more draws on your time, you’re going to have less time to do the things that are going to help you long term and that you have a choice in, that you have some agency in. And more of your time becomes things that you have to do, that you have commitments all over the place, and there’s just less of it to go around.
JP Faunes
So if I could go back, I would have an appreciation of that. And then try and be forethinking and say to myself, “Well, if I have this time now and I’m not always going to have it, maybe I should use it for something that’s productive for future JP,” which I was not great at doing. I was mostly focused on present JP. And he had a great time or whatever, but I didn’t do a lot of this stuff. I didn’t go and meet people. The HBA is great. But even that, it wasn’t like I got out of law school and was all amped up to get involved in the group. It took a judge saying, “Hey, maybe you should… Nudge, nudge. Maybe dummy, you should get involved in this group.” And I was like, “All right, well then I’ll do that.” But if I could do it again, it would be that. It would be you have more time than you think you do, and certainly more time than you will have in the future, use it constructively to do stuff that’s going to help you.
Why Should Young Lawyers Find a Mentor?
Danelsy M.
Now, this is a random question. Do you guys actually have mentors that you’ve met, let’s say the first three, four years out of law school that actually coach you through building your professional network?
Bethany N.
I would say for me, I did not make any really meaningful connections with people that I considered mentors until after my fifth year of practice. And that was a big mistake. I didn’t realize or understand the importance of that. So, I would definitely tell my younger self to do that. But after that fifth year of practice, there’ve been a number of people that I’ve considered mentors in my professional career.
JP Faunes
Yeah. So I’m very, very lucky just in it wasn’t a part of a plan or anything. But I happened to meet that judge who told me that I should get involved in the group and other groups. And actually he ended up being the officiant at my wedding. He’s always been someone I could go to and ask advice of. Actually when I was coming to work here, I didn’t have a sense of how to talk to people in private industry about what am I going to make, what are the incentives, all these things. So he’s somebody who got people on the phone for me, on their vacation to talk to me about what to say and what to ask. And then at kind of each stop along the way I’ve been very blessed to… It seems like there’s always somebody who’s older, more experienced who’s like, “Hey, you’re doing this all wrong. Let me help you and you should take this advice.” Sometimes forcefully like, “Hey, you’re doing dumb stuff.”
JP Faunes
So yeah, I’ve definitely had that stuff along the way and could not recommend it more. If you’re a young lawyer, and you look around, and you’re like, “I don’t know who I would go to for advice apart from my parents or somebody who’s always built in there,” go out of your way to just… There are so many attorneys with a little bit of experience who would be so happy to have somebody to coach up and walk along the path. That’s something that I think a lot of people value and get a lot of happiness from. So, reach out.
Danelsy M.
Well, to your point, it takes people actually stepping outside of their comfort zone and actually asking for help. Right? So for you, how did that relationship came about with the judge? How do you start the relationship and have him play that mentor role in your life?
JP Faunes
He lives in the area where I went to college. And I was an athlete in college, so his kids were out there, and were at camps, and stuff. And I didn’t know it at the time, but when I later met him at a scholarship event and he was doing the whole scholarship thing. And he actually handed me the thing and I got to talk to him a little bit. That was an immediate sort of connection, and then just stayed. I was very, very lucky in that way. I was not good at following up and being like, “Hey, I’d love to go get coffee with you.” Because I figured, I don’t want to be the person who asks for help. This guy has a million people asking them for help. And also, I don’t need it. I’m going to be fine. I’ll go do it on my own because that’s just kind of what you think as a sort of immature person in your late twenties. And I just got blessed that he was very sort of, “Come do this, come speak on this thing, come to this panel, get involved in this group.”
JP Faunes
So without that probably, and his advice in terms of what you just said, “Be willing to step outside of your comfort zone and ask someone for help.” I can’t remember exactly what the phrasing was, but it was so good and so instructed to me. It was like, “You’re not asking for a favor, you’re giving that person an opportunity. If that’s the early investor in you, then not only will you feel engaged to repay that by being successful and being someone that that person will be proud of. But also that person will be rewarded in the relationship just as much as you will if you continue along the path, and work hard, and do all these things.” So it took kind of a shift in my mind to be able to get there.
Danelsy M.
Great. So with that, you bring up a really good point and it’s the factor of consistency, right? So, in building your professional network, it’s not a one off type of thing. You have to stay top of mind, you have to be persistent and consistent at the same time to be able to foster those relationships and again, stay top of mind. So, what would be some recommendations you could offer to young lawyers in terms of staying consistent and not going too overboard where you’re in people’s faces every day. But what’s the happy medium? What are some of the things you do yourselves to get that going on your path?
Bethany N.
Just have a plan, have a goal, and stick with it. Whether it be I’m going to connect with two new people every week this month, that’s my goal. Or I’m going to have two follow-up lunches a week. Or I’m going to post on social media X amount of times. Make a plan, set a goal, and do it is the best way to be consistent.
JP Faunes
Yeah, I’m big on… My consistency mostly comes from routine. I’m a creature of habit so I need certain things all the time. And if I don’t get them, I become total… I need physical activity-
Danelsy M.
It throws you off.
JP Faunes
Yeah, I get all out of whack. And then not only I become a worse person to be around and grouchy, which is not my normal space, but also I’m less productive, it’s harder to get motivated. So I’m big on routine, big on doing the things that you need in your life, but also big on self-care. I don’t think I’ve ever talked to young lawyers and not been like, “Hey man, take care of yourself because it gets really stressful. And identify early what you need. If you need somebody to talk to, then go talk to somebody and make that part of your routine. Just be honest with yourself about what you need because if you don’t, it’s hard to see in the short term. But really over the course of a 20, 30, 40-year career that stuff builds up. And if you don’t have that routine built in, you’re just going to be unhappy.” And I think we’ve all probably seen that somewhere in the profession that somebody who just seems like a real unhappy person, probably didn’t start out that way.
New Years’ Resolutions for Young Lawyers
Danelsy M.
Great. So in closing, new year, 2020. Let’s set up some, I guess, new year’s resolutions here. So, can we actually come up with top three things you recommend people put on their little list as goals for this year? Things that you must do to help build that professional network.
JP Faunes
Oh, you put that little caveat at the end. I was just going to do my… This is about professional networking, I forgot. Right, we’re doing a podcast about networking.
Danelsy M.
Oh, jeez.
Bethany N.
I was going to tell you what my new year’s resolution was.
JP Faunes
I bet it has to do with networking.
Bethany N.
No. It does not.
JP Faunes
Okay. What is it?
Bethany N.
It was remain mellow.
JP Faunes
That’s not a resolution. What do you mean?
Bethany N.
Yes it is.
JP Faunes
Oh, you mean don’t have the highs or the lows, just be-
Bethany N.
Just don’t get upset by the things that come by every day, the calls about a client issue, or-
JP Faunes
Yeah, they’re never happy.
Bethany N.
Or don’t be stressed out because you have so many briefs to do.
JP Faunes
Right.
Bethany N.
Stay calm, remain mellow.
JP Faunes
Right, I like that. That’s a good one.
Danelsy M.
That is great.
JP Faunes
That is a good one.
Bethany N.
Oh, thank you. So that was my new year’s resolution, but that’s-
Danelsy M.
On the networking front.
Bethany N.
The networking. Three new year’s resolutions. One, work on social media. Promote yourself more. That would be a perfect resolution. Two, set a number of people that you want to meet this month in whatever network it is. I want to connect with so many people and have so many follow-up lunches. And three, find a way to get yourself and your name out there more so that more people know who you are. Three new year’s resolutions. Boom.
JP Faunes
Dang. Those are solid.
Danelsy M.
They’re pretty good. Are you ready now?
JP Faunes
Those are solid. So my personal new year’s resolution was to read 10 books, which is so-
Bethany N.
Intellectual.
JP Faunes
It just is such a bad feeling to have to make that a resolution, but we read so much in the practice and I just don’t get to do that much-
Danelsy M.
I’m going to have 20 as my goal for the year.
JP Faunes
Yeah, that’s a lot. I had to set something that’s very-
Danelsy M.
Manageable, yeah.
JP Faunes
Yeah, it has to be attainable. And 10 feels attainable. I don’t know. I got one down, so I’m on the way.
Danelsy M.
That’s pretty good. We’re 16th day of the year.
JP Faunes
So I cheated. I started the book in 2018.
Bethany N.
He has CliffsNotes.
Danelsy M.
In 2018?
JP Faunes
I started the book in 2018, but it’s not… Come on.
Danelsy M.
Okay, it counts.
JP Faunes
I’m not going to be too hard on myself here. So that’s my personal one. Professional networking goals. I would really love to start to send people gifts like peeps and stuff. I think that that’s a good one. Oh, it happened. Bethany spit up her coffee.
Danelsy M.
She’s choking.
JP Faunes
Bethany spit out her coffee. Oh no.
Danelsy M.
I can’t.
JP Faunes
Okay. So, on the-
Danelsy M.
Oh my gosh.
JP Faunes
Yeah, on the professional networking thing, I think-
Bethany N.
I’m crying.
JP Faunes
Oh no.
Danelsy M.
Do you feel like a proud mom here about the peeps?
JP Faunes
Oh no.
Bethany N.
No, he’s making me.
JP Faunes
No, I think a good professional networking one would be to go just join one, either a bar association or legal adjacent group that’s not in your preferred practice area. Go be it. Go to a meeting or go join some group that’s the Real Estate Bar Association or something that’s just not you, so that you can get a little bit of a more diverse network going on. But also hear a little bit about an area of law that you don’t know that much about, which I always find to be… You get so into the personal injury space, you begin to lose… There’s other stuff out there.
Danelsy M.
You’re missing one. One, two.
JP Faunes
Oh, there’s a third one?
Danelsy M.
Yeah.
Bethany N.
Three. You were asked for three.
JP Faunes
I’m going to run a half marathon.
Bethany N.
With new people that you-
Danelsy M.
Networking tips.
JP Faunes
That’s my wife’s-
Bethany N.
With new people you never met before. Boom.
JP Faunes
Yeah. Yeah, that’s it. I’m going to get a training group together for a half marathon that consists of new people. I’m going to join a run club. Bam. Done.
Danelsy M.
Okay, I’m just going to ignore this. Anyways, great. Great tips. Okay.
JP Faunes
Yeah, thank you.
Danelsy M.
All right guys, thank you so much for joining us today and we will see you next time.
JP Faunes
Thanks everybody.
Bethany N.
Thank you.
